'Untrash the Planet’. Joss and Nik on the incredible story of Good Citizens Eyewear.

👂 Listen on Apple Podcasts

👂 Listen on Spotify

👉 Why listen?

What would you do if the kids came home and accused you, well all adults, of trashing our home planet?

Nik took it as a call to arms, putting together a pitch to wife Joss and, in doing so, started the ball rolling one what has to be one of the most impressive family business stories ever. 

From a globally coveted display in the window of Selfridges to a feature in Forbes to becoming Australia's most awarded eyewear, Good Citizens is a true tale of how inspiration and perspiration can make the seemingly impossible come true. 

Listen in to hear:

🎯 How starting with a simple goal keeps things focused

🐨 The challenges and benefits of making 100% in Australia

👦👦🏻 What it's like to be in business with two teenagers who know their stuff

↯ How adapting to unexpected speedhumps can make things better

💕 The touching bond between Nik and Joss that makes them all in as partners, parents, besties, entrepreneurs and more.

It's packed with quotable quotes but a few of my faves are:

👉 On leading with a clear purpose: 'We're clear why we're here. Untrash the planet. Whatever we do has to take waste and turn it into something new.'

👉 On testing styles to find what people liked: 'I would sit in shopping centers and talk to people about this brand and they just go, they look terrible, mate. Talk to strangers, because strangers will just tell you as it is. '

👉 On the struggle of perfection: 'The little details of a brand and a product matter. And with that comes endless hours of worry and doubt and scaredness.'

👉 On the importance of listening to the next generation: 'We want (the kids) to have an opinion...it's their world they're going to inherit.'

Huuuge thanks Joss and Nik for sharing your story.

Get your Good Citizens sunglasses and glasses at www.goodcitizens.com.au

The Story in Brief

We gave AI a listen to the episode, and here’s what it had to say…

A plastic bottle shouldn’t end its life in landfill, and it definitely shouldn’t need a PR spin to count as “green.” We share how our family took a hard problem—Australia’s mountain of single‑use bottles—and turned it into something people actually want to wear every day: modular, metal‑free eyewear that’s 100% recycled, 100% recyclable, and made in Australia.

You’ll hear the unfiltered path from a schoolyard wake‑up to a working product: weighing bottles and frames, learning why recycled isn’t the same as recyclable, and persuading a brave local manufacturer to try what others said couldn’t be done. We get into the gnarly bits—tooling costs, draft angles, temperamental batches, and the 2,400 failures that taught us how to design with post‑consumer PET instead of fighting it. The result is a simple system with fewer parts, premium lenses, and a tiny coloured clip that clicks just right. That clip became a signal people recognise across a cafe, turning customers into a community of good citizens.

Beyond materials, we map the whole footprint: making and assembling in Sydney so we can see what goes in and what comes out; dispatching through a workplace that employs people with disabilities; and building service around fast, affordable repairs. We talk pricing without flinch, why we refused to “blend” in virgin plastic, and how honesty in emails outperformed glossy launches. There’s also the human side—family dinners as mini board meetings, near‑burnout, cold ocean swims, and the value of a small circle who’ll ask you out of ten how you really are.

If you care about sustainable design, circular economy, ethical manufacturing, or just want sunnies that look and feel great, this one’s for you. Tap follow, share with a friend who loves a good build story, and leave a review to help more people find the show.

Recording in Sydney’s Avalon Beach. Everyone’s got the glasses on.

Full Episode Transcript

Ben: 0:04

Okay, so we can go. Okay, we're ready. Tap and click. Click and tap. Tap to buy a coffee, click to buy a book. Lunch, petrol, the electricity bills, tickets, beer, new climbing gear, something to wear or a new do for your hair. Every single day we Australians make over 23 million purchases by tapping and clicking. And every year this adds up to over $80 billion worth of stuff. With transaction costs of up to 3% per sale, that's over a billion dollars a year going into the pockets of the people who process the payments. People who, let's face it, probably aren't short of cash. Maddie and Glenn have a good idea. What if, instead of helping rich people get richer, some of those transaction feeds went into enriching our environment by plantBen: 0:04

Can you hear me okay? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Pineapple and pizza.

Joss: 0:11

No way. Absolutely not.

Nik: 0:13

Yeah, yeah, more pineapple

Ben: 0:14

Alright, good. Plastic bottles. You use them, you hopefully recycle them, but what do they become after that? Some become new bottles, some become fleece jumpers or outdoor furniture, but sadly, most still become garbage. Whether because they're put in the wrong bin, not put in the bin at all, or because people just don't see it as important. Almost two in three bottles that could be recycled in Australia is not recycled. And given that we Australians buy around five billion single-use drink bottles every year, that's an awful lot of landfill. One good answer is to find ways to turn this ordinary rubbish into something extraordinary. And Joss, Nick, and the kids have a good idea to do just that. Good Citizens Iowa takes used plastic bottles and turns them into oh so cool Sunnies in Iowa with frames that are 100% recycled, 100% recyclable, and 100% made in Australia. Joss and Nick are here today to tell us all about it. Hello. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. So, Jos, your background is in public relations and communications. And Nick, you've been a radio broadcaster, a creative director, a donut maker, and a lecturer. How on earth did you end up making eyewear together? You go first, Joss.

Joss: 1:28

I think it's a really good idea. Sometimes we actually don't know how we ended up in eyewear. And I don't think that was necessarily the plan. The plan was that we wanted to untrush the planet. We wanted to do something with plastic bottles. And being in Australia, Sonny's was just one of those things that we reached for first and thought, how about this? And then I guess I guess the rest just was your tenacity more than anything, Nick.

Nik: 1:54

I mean, it was born from Harry and Archie's upset coming home from school. And we took one of the world's biggest problems, which you just uh so eloquently introduced, the problem. And we basically took that problem and we put it onto people's faces, which is eyewear.

Ben: 2:06

So take me from the start. I mean, so the kids come home from school and what they've been learning about essentially waste and garbage, and no doubt you guys are living quite close to the ocean. So there's a consideration that this ends up in our nature. You have the chat and you go, well, what could we do about this? And then you you decide everyone in Australia needs sunnies, but what do you do then? You then go, let's start a company.

Joss: 2:28

Well, I think that's I think that's the interesting part, isn't it? That as you say, we have zero retail background, zero manufacturing background. We certainly have not even touched on the optical industry in past careers. It wasn't like we we had done any of that previously. The one thing we did know was how to create a brand. And I think that's what we've done really, really well. The rest we literally made up as we went along. And I think right at the very beginning, Nick decided that he wanted to make a difference. He and Harry had had had some really deep conversations about this, and he genuinely wanted to see if he could do something to make it happen. And I'm very much the no person. Like Nick is not short of ideas. The whole time that we've been together, he's had ideas for brands, for our life, for everything. So it was a case of saying, okay, you have a think about it, and then essentially come back to us and present your ideas.

Nik: 3:28

My kids and wife became a client. What you you brought them a pitch stick and far off? Yeah, I mean, so you know, you can imagine you got kids upset, they come home, they lay it on you, they accuse you because we adults are in charge, we make decisions, and they basically just said we've got to do something. And so I don't think we ever actually thought we'd end up where we are now, but it what felt right was that we were doing something that was interesting and that could make a difference. We weren't sure what it would end up being, but we knew, and that kind of drove us.

Joss: 4:01

Yep, and it does bring ideas, like he's clearly an ideas person. And this was the one where I go, actually, I just thought I can see it, I could visualize it, I could actually, I felt, you know, the comms was clear, the messaging was clear, I could see the brand, I could see people getting on board with it. So it wasn't a no, it was like, yeah, I actually think we can do this. And then I think some things just kind of fell into place.

Ben: 4:26

So what do you do next? Like lead me through that process of I have an idea to I sell my idea to my family, to now I've got to actually make this idea into a pair of glasses.

Nik: 4:38

The good thing is, this is where our skill set comes in. A logo is designed, an identity, because it's funny, when you've got an identity or something, it's real because it's on a piece of paper, it's not a figment of anyone's imagination. So we kind of thought about the name. And it was actually the easiest thing to do, wasn't it? Because a good citizen is we all live on this planet, we all want to be perceived as good, we all got to play our part. It doesn't matter whether you're into rock music, rap music, you're still a citizen. That's the thing that unites us, and you want to be perceived as good. So the good citizen brand was born, that was like 10 minutes, and identity popped out not much later than that, you know. And so we had the brand.

Joss: 5:15

We had the messaging down, Pat really. We had the messaging down. Yeah.

Nik: 5:18

So we're like, okay, this is starting to feel good. And then we were weighing things, and yes, a bottle weighed 25 grams. We weighed plastic frames of glasses and they weighed 25, 26 grams. Brilliant. And it's also something that is a visual piece of accessory that people are going to see. You always look at someone's eyes, no matter what, you always see it. So that kind of got us thinking about design. And we went, right, let's research it. Is anybody else doing it? No. There's this whole thing that, you know, products are recyclable and recycled. Recycled and recyclable is different. And we found that out. And not a lot of people appreciate that. There's other eyewear brands out there that'll say they're recyclable, and customers think they're buying a recycled product. No, they're buying a virgin plastic product, but at the end of its life, it can be recycled. Once we'd got our heads around that, we were very clear. One bottle makes one pair. Very simple communication. And when the kids were coming, we were saying, actually, let's do this. The kids were understanding it. And if the kids are understanding it, okay, mum, dad, one bottle makes the one pair. We get that. Then customers are going to understand it because everyone's busy, everyone's distracted. So we kind of used the kids as a barometer. As we were building this brand, we'd run everything by them and they'd be like, don't get it. What are you talking about? Bored. And so you go, okay. So that was kind of it. But it was four months of research. Then we went into design phase where we actually started to look at how do we turn just a bottle. Most eyewear has metal hinges. So we had a very clear brief, no metal. It has to be repairable and it has to be, you know, interesting, has to be an interesting design. So we ended up with a modular design where when you start to look at the expense of making the machines that make the parts, you go, hang about, why do we need three arms if you've got three styles? Let's have one arm, one hinge, and different frame fronts. And that way we can save money. So we went on that journey and then we had to start making it. And that was the most depressing time of my life.

Joss: 7:06

Yeah, I think that's because most people would have most people would have got to that point and then found someone in China to make them. You know, they would have just said, this is what I want, make them. You're the experts. And oh no, Nick wanted to do it himself in Sydney, you know, where he could be on top of quality control, see it coming out. And we had some really interesting moments. There were, we were trying to find an industrial designer. It's not like, you know, you Google and people come up and you have no idea, you know, whether they're any good. We were sitting in a sushi restaurant, and Nick being Nick, completely no shame. He will literally go up to anyone and ask them a question. And this guy sitting next to us had a really nice pair of glasses, and he asked him where he got them from, and so he could find out who designed them. And he was like, Oh, I designed them myself. And I 3D printed them. And this is in Roselle. And then his kids were at school with ours. In fact, I think his daughter is in the same class as Harry. And he goes, Oh, yeah, I'm an industrial designer. So there were these weird things that happened along the way. And then we found a manufacturer in Worrywood, which is just down the road from where we are now. And he was the only person who was brave enough to say, Look, I don't know how to do it. No one's done it before. There's a part of me that doesn't think it can be done, but let's give it a go. I'm up for something. I'm up for doing something. I want to change the world too. I want to do good. So let's use my expertise and let's see if we can make it happen.

Ben: 8:32

How many people did you have to talk to before you found him?

Joss: 8:35

I don't know, Nick. How many do you talk to?

Nik: 8:37

A lot. Look, Joss teases me about wanting to do things myself. Inherently inside me, I have to see something happening with my own eyes to believe it. And I don't trust, especially in this area, because there's a lot of greenwashing. So we wanted to draw a circle from the kids' school in Roselle, an hour, and everything had to try and happen within the hour. And so you start to look at industrial areas and you ring up silver down near the airport, and I don't know, five, ten businesses. And we were very not naive, but we're like, yeah, we're gonna make this happen, of course.

Joss: 9:07

And so many people dismissed us. They would just like fob us off with a quote and just and then hope that we never came back, kind of thing. Like I just genuinely believed that we would do it.

Nik: 9:19

But they hadn't met Josh and I.

Ben: 9:21

Do you want to hear a story about your um I've got a little story for you just quickly? So I was working with a furniture manufacturer, and they wanted to make the material of the furniture out of um recycled plastic bottles. So they did go to China because a lot of their stuff came in and said, Look, can you do this? And they said, Yes, we can. And then they sent someone over to have a look at it. And they found that what they'd started doing is manufacturing plastic bottles and then pulping them to turn them into the furniture.

Joss: 9:49

And they like that doesn't surprise me though, because because that was what the main problem that we had at the beginning was the quality of the bottles and the fact that it's like in Australia, we're not very good at streaming recycling waste. Everything goes in together, you get all your bottles, it can be PET, it could be HDP, it could be anything in there. And then so places like Japan, they obviously, you know, they stream all their waste. That's why things like the return and earn are great, because that's streaming waste. So to begin with, like we really struggled because you know, PET, once it's recycled, becomes treacle, whereas virgin plastic flows like water. So I can understand why they're doing it, because they'll control it, but obviously it completely defeats the purpose.

Ben: 10:33

So that was one of the reasons manufacturers didn't want to necessarily take you on, because they're thinking, okay, if you just came to me and said, make me some eyewear frames, they'd be like, great, I buy virgin plastic. It's like water, it works in all my machines. Guaranteed to work. I know how much, I know how easily it works, and I I sell you that, we all go away happy. Whereas you're asking them to take essentially a new material or a new version of very unknown material, yeah, how it performs, very unknown material with yeah, different performance qualities. It's like treacle because our recycling streams are imperfect.

Nik: 11:07

I do remember having a conversation with Tom, who was our manufacturer, and because Joss and I had done all the pre-work on the brand and the story and why we were doing it and untrashed the planet was this rallying cry. He got on board with that. And he's like, Okay, I make lots of products from Virgin Material, and Tom is very, very aware of what the industry's doing. And so he he's like, Yeah, I am prepared to put some time into this. And maybe he thought And he probably regretted it because no, he but he felt a sense of achievement, he felt a sense of he, and I mean, the other reason as well we did it locally is when you're talking to someone, I'm often not the best communicator and I'm dyslexic, and I'm from Yorkshire. So anybody trying to understand me, good luck. But when you're trying to solve a problem, I think you have to do it with people in a room together where you can read each other's body language and understand. They might not be saying something, but their body is saying something. And so for me, that's really important. If you're working with someone in a foreign language and you don't know what's arriving in a box, you just don't, it's just you can't solve problems over Zoom.

Joss: 12:07

But that but that was the other thing was like, so their answer, so when things weren't, as you were saying, it's an unknown material. So as we're going through and more and more failures, their response is, well, we could mix it with glass, we could mix it with this. We could put in, you know, just 10% of virgin PET would make this better, would make this work better. And Nick's like, nope. And I'm like, that's not going to work for our comms. It doesn't work, it's not what we're about. We are 100%. We're trying to prove that it can be done. We're trying to do business better. That's cheating. And they're like, it really isn't. And now if you look at so many products that say that they're made with recycled product materials, you'll notice made with, not from, with. And then when you actually burrow right down into the detail, you'll notice that it might have 25% recycled material at the most. Like you can actually, I think, what's the statistic? 5%?

Nik: 13:01

5%, I think legally after you can say. So I try and explain to the kids, that's like baking a chocolate cake and putting some sprinkles on top. That's the recycled content. The chocolate cake, the big wedge, is virgin. Don't call it.

Joss: 13:14

And that was why we had to do it ourselves locally, because we just knew that you just couldn't prove what came in a you know palette from China or wherever would actually be what it says it was on the box. And we just knew in our hearts that we couldn't back a business right.

Nik: 13:32

This is going to be controversial. We did have a couple of brands, really, really big brands over the period, approach us when we'd actually cracked it and said, Oh, we want to make glasses with you. We also make it from plastic bowls. So I would buy their glasses for seven dollars from plastic bowls. I'd get those glasses and I took it to the lab and got it tested, and it's not even PT. What was it? Virgin and other material. But Virgin one standard, cheap, very cheap to make. And I'm just I never daubed them in, just declined them. They were thoroughly disgusted that we declined to work with them, but it's like, nah, because we are in this for the long haul. We've got two little kids. We have to be really careful about what we do and what we think and how we act. And yes, you might have millions and millions and millions of followers, but this is just not right. It doesn't feel right. Did they think they were doing the right thing? I had no idea. I think the person that I'd said no to just kept emailing me, but they weren't the CEO of the business. They were huge, they're one of the biggest players. Not in the iWay game, in the fashion game.

Ben: 14:30

But there's this that's an interesting question, though, isn't it? Like my furniture company, they could have said, great, if they hadn't gone and looked and realized what was going on, they would have honestly thought they were doing the right thing. And this becomes one of those challenges. So, I mean, do you think that brand thought they were doing the right thing? But no, no, that they're not what they're getting. Yeah.

Joss: 14:48

But we do, but it's interesting you say that because you know, we're very hot on what other brands in our space are doing. And we get sent stuff from friends and colleagues and whatever, just sending stuff going, Oh, have you seen this? And usually we have, but now and again there'll be something new. And there'll be a brand that will talk about using a proprietary recycled material. And we're like, Oh, this quality's amazing. What are you making it from? And they're like, Oh, we don't know, but they've just told us it's recycled. Like they have no idea what it's actually made of. You know, like, but what is the polymer? What is the plastic? And they'll just say, Oh, we we don't know. We're just told that it's a proprietary mix of recycled materials.

Nik: 15:28

Some of them have actually gone back to their factory in China and they've come back with this term. So I've gone to I've got like three or four polymer experts that I talk to, absolute gents of the game. And I'll email them this name and they'll just put into their database and go, This doesn't exist. This polymer globally doesn't exist. It's just made up mystery. It's just a made-up name. Like first half. They've got like two wheels and they've just spun them, and wherever it lands, they've got the first half of one plastic and the second half of another. Chat GPT, make me up a new polymer. Yeah, yeah. Sounds like uh something, but it isn't.

Ben: 15:59

So it sounds like the decision, well, you did it because you wanted to be there and see it and be able to talk to people and interact with them. Actually, the ability to really be there with your supply chain is fundamental if you want to bring a product to market that you can truly hand on heart say matches the story you're seeking to create.

Joss: 16:14

Totally. And we know with, you know, absolute clear conscience that we know that every single pair, because Nick is at the machine, he's putting in the plastic, he's putting, you know, he's taking out each part. We know a hundred percent that it's exactly what we say it is.

Ben: 16:32

Which is a very nice thing in a world where it's very hard to trust a lot of things you see, especially grain claims. So you've managed to find this manufacturer and you've stood there at the machine and you've seen it come out. You've seen it go in, you've seen it come out. I assume at some point there before you've managed to scale up to have a few hundred pairs to sell or something like that. Is that what happened next? Did you then go, Great, we've got a prototype. I'll run what one or two styles and start figuring out what to do with them.

Nik: 16:59

What happens? How long is your podcast?

Ben: 17:01

Uh so it's not not quite so simple of going from one pair to a few thousand pairs.

Nik: 17:06

So on the machine, when you get it to work, it can take sometimes a day to get the first pair out working properly, just to get your head around this. Then you go, okay, we've cracked it, it's working, brilliant. Then you come back the next day, turn on the machine and put that pre-programmed set of parameters in, and it doesn't work. So then you've got four hours to dial it back in. So then, you know, I'm not going to give too much away of our IP, but we've got on each machine 120 settings that we can save, but we have to keep deleting. And they're all full. Every machine's full of a different setting. So we follow things like weather patterns, we follow everything because you are scratching your head, your head going, why is this not working? And then every bottle's different, and you get bottles all batched together and re-blended and re-pelletized. And it's a nightmare. It really is quite difficult. But there's a lovely charm around a bottle becoming something that is amazing. It's like reincarnation. And, you know, that's what I think one of my superpowers is keeping the team motivated because after a day of it not working, I'm the one that's falling apart inside, but I'm just like, nah, because you know what that feeling's like when you get it. And so I think everyone that's involved, there's a genuine love-hate with us, but they genuinely just feel so proud. And I think that's what we've done is is when you're working with a team, they have to be motivated and you have to just keep reminding them of why we're doing this. Importance of purpose or mission at the top of it all. Untrash the planet.

Joss: 18:39

But I think style-wise, we started off with well, the designers wanted us to do one style, but it was so polarizing. We were like, no, we've got to do that sort of, you know, a wayfarer style just for the masses. So we ended up launching with two styles, and we no longer sell either of those two styles. So we've had to adapt them and change them because it just didn't work. So the shapes just did not work for what we were doing. We had to change the style. So that it was manufacturing would be.

Nik: 19:13

Yeah, yeah. But we, you know, we realised that the plastic flows in a certain way. So you it's like when they say you get lost in the jungle, you have to just work with the jungle. You can't fight the jungle. It's like you can't fight a plastic bottle. If the plastic bottle wants to go one way at a certain temperature, you redesign your machine for the bottle. It's insane. Honestly, we've got 10 different molds, I think, for the eyewear, just because we've learned that it just won't do that, no matter how much so molds are the shapes of the glasses.

Ben: 19:40

Yeah, yeah. So you've actually got to change the shape of the industrial design to the same.

Nik: 19:44

If you look at a Lego brick, it's square. But when you injection mold something, it's two halves coming together, and then you have to release it. And if it's not got something called a uh draft draft angle, the air can't get in, so it's just stuck together like a vacuum. Lego's done it with the draft angle on the inside of the brick, which keeps it square on the outside. And so we didn't even know what a draft angle was. And so all of a sudden we're like, oh, we haven't got enough draft. That's why it's sticking, which means it's a complete redesign of a tool. Because one extra degree of draft is the difference between the machine opening or staying permanently closed and the part popping out. So we're like, okay, that's a lesson to learn. But like the first tools were 20,000 US a pop. So every time you redesign, you've got to spend another 20,000.

Joss: 20:28

That's why people are like, why do you like we've got three styles now? And people are like, why do you only have three styles? And obviously, you know, the main reason is we're not a fashion brand. We're not about, you know, bringing out styles for a season. We want ours to be classic and timeless and and not throw away. We want to be always making the same style. But then, you know, why don't you have a cat eye? Why don't you have a wraparound? Why don't you have this?

Nik: 20:51

Because the bottle won't let us do it. We can't do it.

Joss: 20:54

We can't do it. And also every like we do, we want to bring out a full style, but we've been working on it for 12 months. Like it's not something you can't just pick it from a catalogue and go, can you make me that, please? It just doesn't work like that. It's got to be, and Nick's one of these people, he will go out onto the street and he will get the prototype and he will get a hundred people to try it on and tell him what he thinks before. Because like we can't take a risk. If we make a style, we have to know it's gonna work. Because it's not just like, oh dear, that didn't work, start again. You know, it's 12 months of you know, design and I don't know, research and testing.

Nik: 21:28

And but the the people that truly do buy our brand truly get it. They get it, you know, and you get some people going, how can you charge this for a bottle that's 10 cents? Like, you're a joke. I actually love those messages now because it just gives me a chance just to go back and just explain really clearly why, right? And so this is a really premium, beautiful pair of glasses with a fantastic story and a feel-good factor. There's feel-good built in, baked in to every pair.

Ben: 21:57

Isn't it interesting how they'll ask that of you? But they won't ask that of an everyday pair of glasses. Like your glasses are not particularly high price. There's a lot more expensive glasses out on the market. But how much is the value of the materials in those? In a pair of Ray-Bans or Oakley's or pick any. Oh, look, I think it wouldn't be any more than it wouldn't be a great deal more than that.

Joss: 22:15

They would make theirs for less than we make ours.

Ben: 22:18

That's what I would think. Yeah, the consumer, it's interesting when you try to do something good, they start querying you on everything, but they never ask that question of everyday brands.

Joss: 22:26

Yeah, and then they start talking about green tax, and you know, that was something that when we first launched, we were really clear on. We wanted it to be accessible, we wanted it to be design-led, we didn't want to pity buy, and we wanted it to be something that people would enjoy wearing, but it had to be, you know, it couldn't be something that was $400 where people were, you know, saving up to buy.

Nik: 22:50

We just want these to be the people's glasses, and people will buy these and go, I've got my super expensive for the races or the girls' lunch. But every other day of the of the year they'll wear our glasses because they're super light, super comfortable, and they just feel good. And they've got amazing lenses. Like we get a bit of grief sometimes off people going, and your lenses are in the same kind of pair that another brand would charge three or four hundred dollars for.

Joss: 23:12

That's only from the optical industry, though. Yeah, but they're super like the consumers are pretty chuffed with that.

Nik: 23:16

Yeah, they're chuffed because we it's the only element that we buy in the put in the frame, and we want it to be absolutely pucker premium, right? Because we care about people's eyes. It's a good citizen thing to do.

Ben: 23:27

I want to unpack that, the role of design. So you've got three styles. You've also got the little clips. Obviously, when I buy them, I can buy for very little extra money the extra colored clips. So I can I can actually customize them to my day. I can have red clips, white clips, blue clips, different colours. So I can I could have one of each if I want to be really crazy. Um, if I buy two pairs, all the arms are actually interchangeable, so I could have different colored arms. So you've actually it's it is actually a lot of design in there and a billion and customization is a big deal in fashion these days. At the same time, you've got the purpose story. We're on a mission on trash the planet. How important do you think those two are in relative terms to people's decision to buy?

Joss: 24:11

Well, it's really interesting because whenever we talk about, you know, what's our lead message? Everyone needs like a lead message. We really struggle because there are so many elements to our glasses, you know, as you say, customizable, they're made from recycled materials, they're repairable, that customization, yeah, what do you call it? That allows for them obviously to be repaired as well. So you can buy an arm. If you dog choose an arm, you can buy a new arm. So I think that that has been a really interesting combination. And I think it works really well because it isn't, as I said, it's not just about a pity by or a I'm gonna buy these because they're eco. I'm gonna buy them because I can make them my own. I they look good, they feel good, you know, there's so much wrapped up in it, and all of it is driven by purpose.

Ben: 25:03

Do you find that um when people first come up to you, they go, I love your glasses, they're so cool looking, or do they go, I love your story?

Nik: 25:10

They have this is a visual appeal, curb appeal, as my dad says. He was a shoe designer, gotta get that right, nail that. But what the clip is for me the most exciting part of the design because it that little piece of plastic which took 18 months, and when you I'm just gonna, because we've got, I'm gonna open my glasses here. So this little sound, that little click, right, on each side, it sounds the same. That took 18 months. Things like that, little details are important, the little click and the so, but also when I was eight years old, I'd drive around the Lake District with my granddad and his camper van, and people would flash the lights at this if they were also in a VW camper van. You pulled up in a VW camper van today. So, right, we realized quickly, we were telling Harry and Archie this story, and they said, Oh, so every time someone saw another camper van, they get really happy. Yeah, well, let's include that in our design. So the clip is our visual signifier to the world that you're a good citizen. And so, if you're in a cafe down a beach, you see, and the brief was we need to be able to see another citizen walking towards you 40 meters away, and then you start to grin and you stop and go, You're a good citizen. I love you because you care about the planet. But I like your glasses, you know, you I love what you're wearing today, you're cool. And we've got people that email us saying they've become friends.

Joss: 26:23

And they send us photos.

Nik: 26:25

Because they met in a cafe wearing the same glasses or at a funeral? Yeah, funeral. We've had funerals. We got a picture a couple of years ago, uh, and it's a couple got on a plane from Melbourne both wearing Clavelli lemonades, and then they ended up sitting next to each other and having a few wines. Not lemonades, not lemonades. And so, how how great's that that a product is because of a visual little signifier to say I'm a good citizen, is that's that's what a brand surely should be about, is about making someone feel something. And they are not customers, they are ambassadors. They've got an important job to do, they've just got to look good.

Ben: 27:00

So that's very interesting. So, I mean, if I unpack that, if I tell me if you agree with my unpacking, fundamentally first, they have to look and go, I like those Sunnies. They might look good on me. It's a very personal, totally, in the nicest possible way, selfish decision. I want to look good. Then your little clip, as you say, is a very recognizable piece of the glasses, so you can see from a distance. So, so then there's this feeling of not only do I feel I look good, but I now have a little thing saying, plus I do good.

Children: 27:27

Yep.

Ben: 27:28

So there's a little piece that brands me that says I'm a good human and you've given me a visual representation of the world that I'm kind of good human. And then that helps them connect with other good humans, people who care, which means suddenly you're creating almost a tribe of people being able to signify who they are through this choice.

Joss: 27:44

Yep, absolutely spot on.

Nik: 27:46

Nailed it. And that's that was in the first design brief. And it's funny because you write briefs every day, all day. Josh has written briefs, I've written briefs. We've both been at the end of a brief gone, what does this mean? Like, what? You want everything in? But we're really simple about that. One bottle, one pair have to look cool as hell, and they have to be modular, and we have to have this little visual signifier.

Ben: 28:04

So the biggest story, I want to go back to the story almost of you've been through the pain, you've gone from I got one pair, I can get a thousand, oh no, I can't. That's then you've managed to at some point get a thousand pairs or however many pairs. Now you've got to sell them. And obviously, because you've done your research, you know you've got curb appeal, which is good, but you've got to get the story out there. To, and obviously, that's a mix of social media and media and all sorts of things. How did you do that? But also, I'm really interested in the role of the mission and how much that was of interest to getting your story out there.

Nik: 28:40

I'll I'll go first quickly because this is Joss's area. But from a product perspective, we in this world, everything has to be perfect, every brand has to kind of come out the gates as just, you know, all sorted, totally everything's uh so appealing. I know. I'm holding, I'm showing you here like a pair of glasses. What we did was we shared all our puck-ups, basically. And we were really honest with people and really authentic and really vulnerable to say we're trying to do this and we are a year late. We're trying to. So that basically made us trustworthy. And also people got behind us because they want to see the little guys win.

Ben: 29:14

So you literally, instead of going out there going, look at us, we're awesome, we're perfect. You went, Look at all the mistakes we've made to try to get to where we are.

Nik: 29:23

This week we made two pairs of glasses, and I've got four massive burns on my finger from a blowtorch. And by the way, there's two grands for sale this week if you'd like to. Oh, but we haven't made the arms at that point. We just made the frame fronts. And I remember sending an email out and I said to Josh, uh, is this really negative? But I've had a three out of ten week. I'm just going to send an email to everybody. It's not a joyous email, it's an honest email. And a guy called Adam said, Here's my holiday house. Go have a nice uh well-earned break. Yeah. Bring your Sonnies. Yeah, weekend holday house. Lovely guy, still friends. But no, you you should now talk about the messaging and the media.

Ben: 29:56

And but before you move, I do want to hear more about that, but that's really interesting. Isn't it? You've shared your vulnerability in a world of, as you say, kind of fake perfection. Let's be honest. Social media is like everyone pretending who they'd really like to be. And you've gone the opposite. And it's actually drawn people in to help you. Like literally, someone saying, Oh, geez, I love what you're doing. I can see it's hurting you. Why don't you take a well-owned breast from a holiday house? That's insane. The ability for just showing the truth to bring people to the world.

Nik: 30:23

Yeah, because I think everyone, like, you know, you can go out to a high street now and buy a pair of recycled glasses or recycle this or recycle that for $13. And I guess we also used it as a way of educating people to say it's not that easy. Like it really isn't that easy. But look, there's been some amazing moments. I remember a guy emailing me saying, What's Harry's favorite cartoon character? And Harry wrote back, and the guy spent five hours doing a lovely pencil drawing and sent it to him in a tube. Right. And so, I mean, that I still remember that. There's a book on our shelf written by a guy called John. He lives in Perth. He's written a book and he sent it to me to read. People were sending us gifts to keep us going. Right. How often do you send Audi, who's servicing your car? Oh, do you know what? Thanks so much. Can I send you something? It's like, I know we're a lot smaller than Audi, and there's no problem with Audi as a brand. But yeah, there was the connection because people felt like they were part of it. Like, and everyone gets a citizen number as well, which is a different story. But everyone is the little citizen population counter goes up by one every time someone buys. And so that's an interesting thing as well. But yeah, you should talk now, Joss, about the media.

Joss: 31:30

I think it what was really interesting was when we were about, you know, all our savings in, or about to be all of our savings in, I had a bit of a panic attack. And I said to Nick, I think, you know, before we launch this, I'd like to test the market. So we did a pre-order. So we I just wanted to see whether people actually would buy this stuff. And so we did a pre-order and it went mental. Like people loved it. So we were like, This is this is actually really good. I'm really excited about this. I am I'm a bit more conservative than Nick's. I like to make sure everything is going to go in. I have an at least have a really good idea that things are going to go in the right direction. I'm less risk, you know, oriented, I think. And so once we had that, I felt like we were onto something and that I felt more comfortable moving forward, that people would buy and they would buy into our story and they were interested and excited about, you know, trying something a bit different. And then COVID hit. So we launched, by the time we actually managed to get out of first pair. So these poor people had pre-ordered like 18 months prior. And it was still waiting. And then we had a whole load on a waiting list. You know, that was in the time when, you know, people would talk about having, you know, 15,000 people on their waiting list. We had about 1,500. But I've again I was thinking, this is great. We'll launch, we'll sell that, then we'll get the cash flow to grow. And then COVID hit, everyone went into lockdown, and people stopped spending, and we launched one week into lockdown.

Nik: 33:00

We went out to a database of there's a database, it was quite a big database of people that had put uh interest. We would like to buy a pair. Maybe five people bought from that database of a lot of people.

Joss: 33:11

So that was a bit concerning. So all our retail ideas went, you know, you couldn't go within a metre and a half of someone.

Nik: 33:17

We had a whole strategy around sharing glasses and being a good citizen. You can't go within a one and a half metres of someone. So your individuals have all pre-ordered, but now once COVID's hit, you're your bigger region. Well, we had a thousand guaranteed sales at the start, and then we put a list up to say if you want the next thousand hit for your name.

Ben: 33:35

They didn't convert five people.

Joss: 33:37

No.

Nik: 33:37

Wow.

Joss: 33:38

And that's when we realized that we were a direct consumer brand.

Children: 33:41

Yep.

Joss: 33:42

You know, and that's what we had to, we had to become that to survive. And so, but I guess we were really lucky because what COVID did was it made people braver about trying to buying things online. People were buying shoes and they were buying sunglasses online. So we had to have a very good returns policy, obviously, because people like to see what, as you say, see what they look like on themselves before they commit. We had to get things like a virtual try-on service where, or tech, I suppose, where you could try the glasses on with a picture of yourself. So we had to completely change though that strategy. And we still don't have a storefront because we have grown as a direct consumer brand. We do have stockists, so we have retailers that will sell them within their collection of other things. And that's really good. They love them. But we realize very quickly that we attracted a certain type of consumer. And I think sometimes I worry that maybe coming in, you know, at that 150 mark, as in $150 a pair, so which is middle, perhaps wasn't the best idea for the world that we're in now. So cost of living crisis, because the cheap glasses are doing really well and the expensive glasses are doing really well because those people who have money always have money. So, but we've done really well to retain our customer base. We have a 40% customer return rate, which is unheard of for something that people buy, what, maybe once, twice a year?

Ben: 35:13

That often I try to make my sunglasses last longer than that.

Joss: 35:16

Well, people just love, they love the you know the colours and they try different styles and they want they'll buy a red pair when they've got a blue pair, then swap them out.

Nik: 35:24

Or gifts, perhaps.

Joss: 35:25

Gifts, yeah.

Ben: 35:26

I've bought them as gifts.

Nik: 35:27

But you get you go to Lego store and you buy a space rocket and a motorbike. Next thing you know, you've got a half bike, half space rocket. You just mix it all together. That's what people have. They've bought glasses and gone, right, I'm gonna mix it all up.

Ben: 35:37

Gee, that's an interesting strategy in itself, isn't it? Totally. Yeah. It's like the two different coloured converts from when I was a kid.

Nik: 35:45

Yes, everyone's skateboarding them.

Joss: 35:47

So true.

Nik: 35:47

Um I'm from Yorkshire, I couldn't even afford a pair of shoes, mate. So now you're showing off.

Joss: 35:51

From as a direct-to-consumer brand, suddenly you know, branding and marketing became supremely important. And so we went really hard on PR at the beginning. It was a novelty when we we were the first people to do it in the world. So we had that first jump advantage. And the news loved it, and lifestyle loved it, and we just got some really good traction from the story. Thankfully, Nick's a really good media spokesperson. I'm good at training him. And I have to say, though, working with your family, the worst. They are the worst. They don't listen, they don't take guidance, they don't read their bullet points before interviews.

Ben: 36:31

Absolutely not, 100% on.

Joss: 36:33

Um, and I remember we got uh an interview with the business pages of the Australian Weekend Australian, and that I think was probably one of our big first ones because it was a really great Aussie business story. And the poor photographer came out to take the photo prior to the interview, and he was just like, oh my god, these kids, you know, trying to get the kids into a good position, and and they were just not listening, they were just climbing all over the rocks, and then he just went with it and he was like, and I was like, that is what we are. We are not picture perfect, we're never gonna do as you want or as we're told. We're just this is who we are, and people enjoyed it, they loved it.

Ben: 37:11

And it's gone from good to better. You've been in um, you won a good design award, which are very coveted and hard to get, and you also ended up with a whole window in Selfridges in London for three months. How important are these sorts of things to success?

Nik: 37:26

I remember Joss came downstairs. I was I actually had a vitamin D deficiency because I wasn't seeing the sun. Where we had the studio, there was no windows downstairs. I was making sunnies downstairs. Out of the sun. The irony of it. Joss came down and she said, Oh, we've picked up a couple of good design awards and a best in class and fashion gold and all this. And I just went grumpy. Because everybody seems to do things for an award. And for me, I was doing this not for an award, I was doing it because it was the right thing to do. So I said to Joss, eh, whatever. And then Harry came down and went, No, Dad, snap out of it. We didn't even enter the sustainability category. We entered objects, homewares, fashion. This wasn't like we put our product against the best of the best and won with a plastic bottle. So we've just proved that with some imagination, tenacity, and good design, you actually can make a great product. So then, as after Josh and Harry had reframed it to me, I was like, yes, fantastic. Selfages was just the weirdest experience in a good way, wasn't it?

Joss: 38:27

I think you have to tell the story.

Nik: 38:29

I mean, I was at home in Yorkshire, having dinner with mum and dad, very traditional people, no phones at the table, no laptop, but my laptop went ding. I looked at it and it was from a gentleman that I didn't even know. And he asked me if I could meet him in London the next day. I declined. And then mum, after dinner, Googled who he was. And probably one of the most influential people in Iwear in the world. Well, they are. So I email just said no to them. I just said no. So I emailed back saying, sure, let's meet. He said one o'clock. I thought I lived in England on the same time zone. So he said, Meet me at one o'clock, come to my office. I said, I'm really sorry I can't meet you at one o'clock because I'm meeting a friend. Uh I'm meeting somebody else. Anyway, he then moved his plans and met me at Selfridge's. And he said, Who did you meet at one o'clock? Because I know everybody in the industry. Like, and most people can't even get an appointment with me. He's a lovely guy. I said, Oh, I've met a guy called George. Who's George? I don't know George in the iWay game. I said, Oh, George is a farmer from Oxford, but he'd bought a train ticket two weeks before. I took him for dinner, lunch at Wagamamas. We're mates. I'm not going to move a mate. I'm sorry, he's committed to for you. I was just an honest conversation. And he, I think he genuinely respected that. And we had two or three hours together, and the general manager of Selfridges of iWare walked past, and there's me with this plastic bottle, a post-it note, and a prototype pitching an idea to this guy who's really excited. And then the next thing you know, he emails me and said, Oh, Selfridges want to give you a window. And we're like, Okay, but we haven't got the money to do that. We didn't have any money to do shop fitting, we had nothing. And they agreed to cover the cost. They put us inside, they booted out Gucci in their area and put us in their section. And at the same time, my cousin was in London and walked in, and there was a big ruckus going on. Someone had obviously seen what had happened from one of the other brands and gone from Gucci? Yeah, get them out. Who are these clowns? Good citizens. But the window went live. Harry, Joss was briefing Harry and I on what we were going to say to the media when we fly across and you know, we're going to invest in some new trainers and look the part. And then COVID hit. And the day the window went live, Oxford Street closed, Selfridge is closed. So it was the most famous window in the world that no one saw. No one saw. And yeah, we tell that story. It's I still talk to that guy from the industry when I can get hold of him.

Joss: 40:48

But I think you're right though, just that as an accolade in itself is, you know, they're all just little notches that back up what we're doing and make it real.

Nik: 40:57

Yeah, at that point we were two and a half, 2,400 fails in. That takes its toll on you. 2,400, like we tried that. Yeah. Didn't work. Got a lump of plastic, not a pair of glasses. Got to make a new machine. Six months to make a new machine. Like hell. So when someone like that meets you and looks at you, like it makes you want to tear up because you're so emotionally spent but invested. And I wanted to bring the good news back to the family, right? So there's those that that's they're the little moments as an entrepreneur when no one knows the grief you go through. But those are the moments, that little glimmer of hope. And I remember saying to Dad, Oh, we've been offered a window at Selfridges. And he was a shoe designer for Clarks. And he said he's not sure if Clarks has ever been given a window at Selfridges. It was almost like we weren't from the industry. We didn't really know how important this was. But then you realize, holy hell, they only changed those windows four times a year. And three of those are for Christmas decorations. And these are the most famous windows in the world. Wow.

Joss: 41:56

But I think what was really interesting about that, like consumers got it, and our customers loved it. But then I thought, you know, this is a great media story. I'm going to go out to the media and go, you know, little Aussie brand gets Selfridge's window on busiest street, you know, retail fashion. Next to Prada. Next to Prada. They could not care less. Seriously, they were not interested. Yeah, thanks for that.

Nik: 42:17

We'll file that. We'll get back.

Joss: 42:19

Didn't care. Weren't interested at all. And it was almost like we had to, I don't know. It was something very strange. Like usually with an Australian brand, if you make it overseas, you make it back home. But it wasn't like that. They just, because we weren't a typical fashion brand, it just didn't fit the mold.

Nik: 42:38

Yeah, we picked up uh Marie Clare UK, have a big fashion, have a big award scene, and we picked up, we got Josh just wrote a submission. Someone must have said I should enter this. So we submitted it and we won Best Fashion Accessory. And you know, you look at Mary Clinton in Mary Clare UK and you look at the the list of people, and there's some, you know, there's 50 people that judge that, and you go, actually, that feels pretty cool. Right, that does feel cool. Whereas you'd speak to try and speak to I'm not gonna bad mouth anybody, but we didn't get, we've not had much love from the local media at all. But we get it overseas. Forbes US loved it. You know, the guy that wrote the article, he's just I don't know, just he was so affected in a positive way at the rawness of the story that you know that kind of just We've had some really big supporters in the media. Oh, yeah, we're still yeah, but I mean, yes, we have.

Ben: 43:28

What about your own followers? I mean, back to that. I mean, you you started out with a lot of people following you and liking the story and giving you holiday houses and the and the like. You've created a tribe of your own. How did those stories resonate with them? Did that get a lot of positivity from them of going, oh great, this brand that I follow and I love is actually clearly a back to winner here?

Joss: 43:48

Yeah, that's right. And I think that's one of the things that I I still marvel at all the time, even you know, today, is that we will send out a database email and people will send a personal response back, just going, I love this. This is just brilliant. Good luck, well done, keep going. You know, there we've got some really amazing supporters. There's one, there's one woman who's she's pretty local. She is so awesome. She loved our round style, the original round style, this one. And we now and again find a pair in the, you know, at the back of the storeroom, and she'll be like, Yep, that's mine. I'll buy it, whatever it costs. And then recently she called and she said, Look, I love them so much. I lost my pair, and I feel like I've lost my identity. They are part of my identity and I love them so much. Would you consider putting the machine back in? I'll pay whatever it is. But Nick just won't do it.

Nik: 44:42

Won't do it.

Joss: 44:43

Because he's like, I can't go through that pain and heartache to do that. It's just not worth my mental well-being.

Nik: 44:51

Just to make a pair of it.

Joss: 44:52

And I'm like, are you sure about that? The bank banks would love that.

Ben: 44:55

Yeah. So we've talked about Untrashed Planet, we've talked about the plastic bottle, but there's so much more to your story, actually, than that, which I find very interesting. The glasses are 100% recycled, 100% recyclable and imminently repairable. So you've gone way beyond just, hey, look, we've put recycled content in here. You also, as you said, make an assemble in Sydney to make sure that you've got control. But also, as you stated, that's to make sure there's a fair wage. You know what your supply chain is. So you know you're treating people well, which is a social issue, not an environmental issue. On top of that, they're dispatched by a center that hires people with disabilities. I did actually, I sold a van recently, and sadly, I left my pair in the Sonny's holder and it went off to like outback Australia. So I bought a new pair and then I unboxed them and I was really impressed by the stories. And that was you as literally as I unbox them to get bits of the story. And part of that was a little piece of paper that told me who had assembled them. And when I looked it up, as I say, it was a workshop for people with disabilities, which I thought that's adding another layer to this story. So you're creating jobs for people who might otherwise struggle to find one. So you could have stopped at recycled plastic, but you went to this whole holistic approach. Why'd you do that? And how important do you think it is for people trying to create what we're calling good products to actually think bigger than just the first idea, if you like, to make this holistic story an impact?

Joss: 46:13

Look, I think the premise behind our business has always been to allow your business to make you do better. You know, we've always talked about doing better business. And I think that, you know, people who have businesses have this wonderful opportunity to spend their money and make decisions that actually do good. So, you know, we could have chosen just an ordinary pick packs and 3PL, you know, and we get contacted all the time by, you know, help us with you, let us help you with your logistics. And we're like, well, no, if we can spend our money with a company that actually helps other people, then why wouldn't you? It just makes absolute perfect sense to us to every step of the supply chain should be about helping people and the planet. Like it just is so clear to us.

Ben: 47:01

Does it make it more expensive in terms of your cost of product?

Nik: 47:05

Uh yes, it does hugely. I mean, you can make a pair of eyewear frames in another country. I'm not going to name any countries, but for 80 cents, bring them in, landed $2.50, sell them for $300.

Joss: 47:15

Already assembled, already packed, ready to go.

Nik: 47:17

Ready to go. The owners of that brand won't even look at them, see them, they go out from a dispatch center. It's about the very small things that that's what really matters. The little, little things that people remember you for as a brand. And I think you've got to bake those in. They are your DNA, the little things. And so the fact that you got a card, you know, Sean, who works there, it can take him 20 minutes to write S E A N. And he's tracing it over a piece of someone's drawing it with a pencil. So it that matters to me. And Joss and I go in, and every time we go in, it's just like, I don't know, the feeling, if I could bottle that feeling up, that these people feeling part of society and are going back to their parents and they've earned what they've earned. It's not about the money, it's about the fact that they've they've actually achieved and done things. You know, it's the little things that matter, it's the surprise and delight things of a brand. That's what you've got to focus on, not just the big sweeping statements, but I just think consumers remember the very small things. And Jos does a lot of customer service, and you know, Joss will get sometimes you do get angry people because they don't even know the story. They've just seen them online on an Instagram ad and bought them and did they had no idea. Just thought they looked good, just look good, and that's awesome. And then they may have something an accident may have happened or something's gone wrong, which is often their fault. And Joss is like, yeah, they're they're they're annoyed. How come they've broken? Oh well, because but don't worry, we'll fix it. And so within 24 hours, they've got a new arm and they fixed it themselves, and they then become it's like a they they've gone from just treating you like dirt to, oh my god, I love you. I didn't realize this isn't why can't every brand be like this? And so there's just constant moments of because we'd sent the arm quickly, because they'd spoke to someone in Australia, because they could speak to us on the phone, old school customer service. It's about the timing. If you're gonna be a brand, don't let someone fester for a week. They just get more angry. So timing and the small things, yep, it's an arm. Which one? Yep, we'll send it to you. You can fix it. That they're the things that truly matter, I think, as a brand. That's why we've baked in all these things. And you couldn't have done that if you're drop shipping out China. No, we couldn't have done it if our design wasn't modular. But all everything, and we probably didn't even re- Yeah, we we knew we wanted modular because we wanted people to be able to fix it. That was the idea. You can design out 80% of all problems at the start of any product if you design it correctly, right? But trouble is people rely on other countries with cheap labour and they've got 50 components when it could get down. There's 25 components in an average pair of glasses, we've got five. So if you boil it down, you know, I hurt my hand and the kids made 450 pairs on a Saturday and Sunday just mucking about. Because they can. Because they can. And they got paid well. They really negotiated a pay rise because it's weekend work, little wrap bags. So, you know, we've the fact that we're we're still going, I look at other brands, and if they did the volume we're doing, they need a big army of people. We don't need a big army of people because we've designed it to be super quick.

Ben: 50:13

So, do you think the obviously you've taken a lot of extra cost in creating a supply chain all the way through from what you make from to how you make to where you make to the post customer service? Do you think the extra financial cost of that pays back in terms of customer loyalty, interest, brand value, creating a tribe of people who is genuinely on your side and going to buy from you for life?

Joss: 50:36

I think that we are, you know, different things for different people. I think there's a whole group of people that genuinely love, they buy our glasses because they are recycled frames. There's a whole group that buy them for the quality of the lenses because they can, you know, there's a whole group that just love to be able to customize them and that's what they love. And then there's a group that genuinely want to support businesses that are doing things like we prevent um plastic as on top of the bottle that we use, we remove plastic from the environment as a with every pair that we sell as a kind of a give back. We obviously use Avenue as our dispatch center. And it's for everyone, there is something that binds them to our brand, and that's different. So if we we get quite nervous about changing anything, because what if you know you lose a whole group of people because you've changed just one element? And I think we have to get better at understanding that it's not just those, it's the sum of all parts.

Ben: 51:31

Is that a question of always going back to core principles before you decide on the next thing you're going to do? Like, how do you decide? Like, you go, okay, we're going to do this next. What's the decision-making process? What are the tick boxes that need to be ticks before you from a product perspective?

Nik: 51:44

It has to untrash the planet. If we can make it in Australia, that's equally the next important thing. I think there needs to be more manufacturing in Australia. There really does. It's just quite sad the state of affairs. And the more you're in it, the more you realize that people are getting older and retiring and no one's replenishing those jobs. And we need those people. There's hardly any toolmakers left, and we need them. So they're the basic rules, has to be a material that is a problem, has to be made here and has to be beautifully designed. And I guess one personal thing is if it can be modular, you know, for me, that's because then it can buy something and customize it and make it your own.

Ben: 52:21

Customizable and repairable.

Nik: 52:23

Yeah, and repairable. So they're the basic principles. We have a kind of a set of rules that we have to look at and just tick it off. And that's why everyone's like, what are you doing next? It's incredibly difficult to work with recycle materials. So we don't have, we've looked at things, we've explored things, but right now we're just going to focus on IWA. Great. So I want to talk about family.

Ben: 52:46

Because you, I mean, look, unto yourselves, you're obviously a couple who've gone into business together, which is at a level of complexity, but you've involved the kids, as you said. They they were there from the start. It was literally them bringing a problem home from school that inspired this whole thing. And you've actually involved the children in the business, as you say. They assemble things, they inspire things, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so how do you handle working together as a couple and as a family? You know, how where does work end? Where does play begin? Like, is every family holiday now a working holiday, or have you found ways to get these? A fa a holiday. What's one of them? How do you manage all this as a family, as a couple and a family?

Joss: 53:25

We're pretty bad. I think as a whole, we are really bad at switching off and we don't put down clear divisions. I mean, you know, our workshops attached to our house, you know. We walk upstairs and that's it. You know, that's the difference between home and work. But I think that as a family, the kids would, at the beginning, they we'd sit down. We have a family dinner every night, and we sit together and we, you know, chat about how the day's gone. And they would be like, hold on, you've spent the entire day together. Why are you still talking about work? And that was our way of kind of decompressing. We don't have the journey home where you kind of let go of work and come home. And I think now they've got so used to it that they just are part of the discussion. You know, they want to know what's happening, they want to know what's going on, they want to be part of those decisions. And sometimes we'll go, okay, kids, this is the decision for today. Do you think we should go with this or do you think we should go with that let's vote kind of thing? And so they are part of it. But it does make switching off really hard. Like when we go on holiday, we do now and again, we will go away. Nick's really good at switching off. He will put on his out of office and go, please contact Jocelyn.

Nik: 54:31

Why wouldn't you do that? That's smart.

Joss: 54:33

So I'm like, hold on. But the difference is so I will constantly deal with the you know customer service, and that doesn't stop, regardless of where you are in the world. That just doesn't stop. But Nick's mind doesn't stop. Like I can go on holiday and I will just think about you know customer service and making sure that everyone's got what they need and you know the practical side of things. He's coming up with more ideas. He's going, I know, I'm gonna write a book. I know, I'm gonna, I don't know, you approve the screen screenprint.

Nik: 55:01

Now she said no book, and we're already on the journey.

Joss: 55:03

You know, he'll be like, I want to learn to screen print. I'm like, oh my gosh, when are you gonna do this? So holidays are dangerous for us, I think. You just get more hairbrain ideas.

Nik: 55:12

We set this up to give the kids a voice and to Jos, like you couldn't get two more opposite people. Like Joss's generally very intelligent, right? She's very calm, she's methodical.

Joss: 55:23

Where's this going?

Nik: 55:24

She starts a task and she annoyingly just completes it, and it's so boring. I'll start 50 tasks and they'll all just crash in when they crash in, right? We're just we're very opposite in a way, but that's why it works. But we, you know, when COVID hit, Joss was all very organized, pencils, rulers, and all this, you know, help the kids with school. I had I couldn't even understand their school. I failed everything at school. So this became an exercise for me to go, right, let's do a stock take. All you ought to do is get a piece of paper, Harry Archie and myself, and we're gonna add up all the parts. We'd spend six hours doing it, but each of us would add three different numbers of what how many parts we had. And so it's like shit, we've got to start again. So all the tasks that I would work with the kids on, like cost of Harry knows how to work out cost of goods. You know, he knew how to work out cost of goods at 10 years of age. And so we've that's kind of they've just grown up in this environment that we have created that they it's normal for them to ask, can we get our cogs down when they look at it? Does that include GST? Or does that not include GST? When your eight-year-old says, Are we gonna lawyer up because they sound like dicks, Dad? Say that again. Lawyer up. Because Josh and I may have been talking, going, you know, we need to talk to a lawyer, we need to get this. And it's funny, they're like sponges.

Joss: 56:40

But whilst Oh no, so it was someone was using our image, someone was using an image.

Nik: 56:45

And we've had people that have tried, you know, stolen taglines, stolen parts of our brand. Uh yeah, we had one company who basically copied our designs, copied our website, everything, but it had been so badly done. And then I contacted them and said, You can't do that. Partly because of the integrity of it's just wrong to steal. But B, you can't just do that because you're not made from recycled materials. And they wrote back going, We're really, really sorry. We just love you so much. We just got so excited we wanted to copy you. And then they said, How did you hear about us? And I said, Because you follow us on Instagram. Like, I mean, anyway, they wrote a letter back. I I didn't get lawyers involved, I just wrote a letter back, the friendly first letter, cease and desist, please stop. But I said that I don't like confrontation, but we said it because we've got a purpose to untrash the planet, we have integrity, you know. So then when I think the kids were listening to this conversation in the car going, Yeah, lawyer up, dad.

Joss: 57:42

No, but I think we also I think it's it that actually brings out a serious side as well. We have to be really careful because Harry has this incredible sense of right and wrong, and he gets really, really frustrated. So if he hears something like that, or he thinks that someone is being unfair, like someone is selling something that's not right, that that isn't what it says it is, he will get really cross about it. And I think I wonder whether sometimes it's because he doesn't have the, you know, the knowledge or the capacity to actually solve that problem, and he feels out of control sometimes. So we have to be quite careful sometimes to protect them so that they don't feel like it's a problem that they actually have to solve. That it's you know, because we talk about, you know, they have equality rights.

Nik: 58:29

They have 25 each of us, Joss, myself, Harry Archie, 25% each say.

Joss: 58:34

But they definitely don't do 50% of the workload.

Nik: 58:37

You know, and Archie will outsource his hours to Harry. I'll come up and Archie will be sat here watching TV. I'll go, where's your brother? Oh, I've taken 25% of his pay per hour, but I've given it to him his hours. So you know, our youngest is outsourcing his brother, so we can then go off and do something. He's the most entrepreneurial of you. Oh, definitely going to be a CEO. Definitely.

Ben: 58:58

Right. So the whole thing that's very interesting. So instead of the because uh the answer I would expect is, oh, we found ways to separate work and play. But actually, what you're saying is you've actually drawn the whole family into it and made it very much a family business. And you sit around and almost have a little board meeting or a leadership team meeting every evening and take votes on all the important stuff, which means of course you have to brief on what the topic is because they're coming in from school, they haven't spent the day in it. So, like any company leadership team, you've got to put down the brief, here's the options, and then everybody votes on it.

Joss: 59:30

Do you I sometimes wonder so it's whether we lead the witness a little bit, you know, when you kind of give them, you give them what you, you know, push them in the right direction. But Harry's wise to that now. He's like, No, no, no, that doesn't make sense. No, I'm not buying that. I want to know all the details. And he's pretty good at cutting through. And I think that's it. You know, they keep us um honest. Well, I guess they just they take away the complication. Sometimes you find it it, you know, making a decision is really hard because you're like, oh, what about all these factors? And he's like, No, it's really simple. And he takes away all of that adult layers of complication.

Nik: 1:00:04

Yeah, straight talking. The other day I was just sat sat watching TV trying to unwind, and he goes, I've been through the website and uh yeah, this needs changing or addressing. He's giving me a web audit. Yeah, web audit. Good man. Yeah. Pumped on the timesheet. But then what happens is he's only looking on a mobile, not looking on desktop. But then he come back.

Joss: 1:00:22

Yeah, but 75% of the stuff.

Nik: 1:00:23

75% of people are on desk on mobile, Dad. And forget, forget, you know, anything else. So one of the things that we've learned is that adults don't have all the answers. And, you know, I think that we all have to listen to each other. And are they just in that they're sometimes people don't have to say something to inspire you or to make you think differently. And I went away and had this brainwave of an idea, and I presented it to Joss, and there was some not general nodding. And then I presented it to Harry, and he was deeply upset. No. And so as much as I tried to convince him, he's just looking at me going, you know, it's not right, Dad. You're embarrassing yourself. That's what his face was saying to me. And then I realized that actually he's just if Joss and I have both agreed that Harry and Archie can have an equal say, we have to listen to that, not override them. So that was a year ago. I still haven't cracked it because I've gone back and now he's in agreeing with the new version of this idea. But it's very difficult to execute it. And I could have executed it very quickly.

Joss: 1:01:20

You're being very cryptic.

Nik: 1:01:21

Yeah, well, I am, but there's some something else is going to happen with the business, which is great, but Harry wasn't into it at the start. So he made me go off and he made me question it. And so that's really valuable because if you go back and then you launch that new venture, all those questions have been answered. So when Josh says, you know, all about our comms, everything's been road tested. It's been pulled apart by a 14 and 13-year-old that just say it as it is.

Children: 1:01:49

Right.

Nik: 1:01:49

So we want them to have an opinion on the generation, you know, moving forward. This their world they're going to inherit. Sounds like a cliche, but it's true. So let them have a say. Is that the future?

Ben: 1:01:58

Do you think they'll take over the business at some point?

Joss: 1:02:00

Harry's been quite clear, although he's changed his mind. Originally, he was like, No, I want to be an engineer, I want to work in F1. And he's been, he doesn't want to run the family business, but he's changing a little bit. He's like, Oh, I hope you don't sell it because I do want to.

Nik: 1:02:14

I think he realizes now. He said to me the other week, he said that uh he realizes how much work has gone into this, it would be a shame for somebody not to take it over or be involved. Has he's getting older.

Joss: 1:02:26

But is that because he thinks that we're just gonna stop? One day we're just gonna go, right, that's it, stop.

Nik: 1:02:30

Yeah, we're just knackered.

Ben: 1:02:32

Maybe that's it.

Joss: 1:02:33

He's looking at us going, oh, they've only got they've only got a bit of time left in them.

Ben: 1:02:37

Talk to me about that. Just the personal sustainability. I mean, you've alluded to it a couple of times, you know, on holiday. Holiday's a great time to do more work. Yeah, exactly. It's tiring. How do you keep your energy up?

Joss: 1:02:49

Well, I think I don't know that we do actually, because I think that it was quite frightening if about a month ago, I think Nick reached classic burnout, like absolute classic burnout. It sent him to the doctor. It was that bad.

Nik: 1:03:03

You know, he was like, I don't think you can say I had burnout when I was walking around the village in a dressing gown with a can of VB with a fairy wig on. That sounds like a personal and perfectly rational thing. I'm looking for a dog that I don't have. That's not that's just normal, Josh.

Joss: 1:03:19

No, he was he just wasn't himself. Like he just was he was anxious, he was getting, you know, panic attacks, he was No panic attack, but I was deeply anxious.

Nik: 1:03:29

But I'd just gone to present to 600 people.

Joss: 1:03:31

I mean, it's compounding, you're already stressed, and then yeah, it was I don't know what triggered it, but he was definitely not okay. And then I so I was like, okay, I was talking to the doctor and she came into the doctor's room with me. I genuinely think he's got burnout, I think he needs antidepressants, I think he needs beta blockers, I think he needs, you know, all this. He needs a mental health check, and Nick's going, I'm not that bad.

Nik: 1:03:56

I was buggered, I was tired.

Joss: 1:03:58

And the doctor's on my side, and then she then it turned out Nick had his bloods taken that he just needed to exercise because he'd broken his leg in March and he just hadn't been exercising.

Nik: 1:04:10

And so I think it had just I also had an inner ear infection. I had vertigo and I had a sinus infection and a virus. What more can a man take on? Ludis. And I didn't winge.

Joss: 1:04:23

A month later, he just bounced back and was back to normal. It was like, okay, that was just a blip. So that was okay. But it did make us actually think look, we do need to be careful. You know, burnout is real. And I know people talk about entrepreneurial burnout all the time, and I've always dismissed it. But I think that we're pretty good. Nick's really good. He does his, you know, morning swims. I think that makes a big difference. And I think that was what happened when he broke his leg. He couldn't do that. And I think that was his level up.

Nik: 1:04:49

I mean, I have a mate who lives over the road, really good friend. He's a wildly successful entrepreneur, you know, written 17 books, has any.

Joss: 1:04:57

Is that why you want to write a book?

Nik: 1:04:58

No. She's just do I want to write a book, Joss, to help people. She's always knocking me, Ben, always knocking me. But he's head broken. Keeping it real. Yeah. But I go for a walk with my mate, and we walk down and we just go for a swim and a coffee every morning for an hour and look at the water and just support each other and talk. And what that is, is that's an hour that Joss doesn't get of me just hitting her with problems or things. It's like I've got somebody else to talk to. So for me, that's important. I have, and I know that that person also talks to me about things. And so, you know, it's code of silence, and it's just nice to have that.

Joss: 1:05:33

Yeah, I think that's actually a really important point. About two years in, we were really close to chucking it all in. This is before we'd even launched.

Nik: 1:05:41

The business, or were you going to chuck me in? I can't remember, because both say the same thing then.

Joss: 1:05:45

Yeah, pretty close. So, what happened was what so Nick likes to talk things out. Like he needs to, I think I personally think he has ADHD. I'm 100% convinced.

Ben: 1:05:56

Add that to the prescription at the doctor.

Joss: 1:05:58

Yeah, yeah, well, exactly.

Ben: 1:06:00

Whatever.

Joss: 1:06:00

But it was a case of like, you know, he needs to talk it out. And there's this funny story about where we used to work. It was in an open plan office. We just rented desks. So whenever Nick had a call, he would go outside and he would pace. He needs to pace when he's on a call, and there were tough conversations.

Nik: 1:06:16

I do exactly the same thing. When you arrived, I was outside talking to someone on the phone.

Joss: 1:06:20

Yeah. And that's what he does. That's how he copes with it. That keeps momentum. And we're in the pub one day, and we were introduced to this family, and uh they went, Oh, yeah, I know exactly who you are and I know what's going on in your business. And Nick was like, What?

Nik: 1:06:35

She had you pace outside my only bit I could get a bit of Telster reception was on her wall.

Joss: 1:06:40

All day long. I know everything. And I think you should do X. It was so funny. But anyway, that's how he copes with it. And I think after about two years in, I was like, You have to find someone else to talk to. I can't be in this business and also be the person that you, you know, just talk at continuously. You know, yes, we need to have discussions, we need to talk things through, we need to make decisions, but I can't be that person that you have the same conversation with 10 times until you hit on the solution. So I always talk about how he would go down into his rabbit hole and he'd go off and to a rabbit hole of despair. I would go down with him and I'd go and I'd get taken off. Now I stand back, I stand on the edge, and I'm like, Are you okay down there? Do you need any food? You know, just make sure he's okay. But I don't go down with him anymore because he was it was too much. I could not cope with it emotionally and mentally. I couldn't cope with it.

Nik: 1:07:33

But I don't know if you share this, Ben, but it's a curse being creative because you get, you know, the light and the shade. And I can have an idea and I can go to Joss, I can say, I've had this idea, I've worked it all up. It looks fantastic, it's all thought through as best as it can be for a concept. So I've got that skill, but with that comes a little bit of, but is it as good as it can be? Because I strive for that one. Most people will be happy with a pair of glasses that are 80% good. IFU for 99% good. And that's in manufacturing, in quality control and design, in aesthetic and feel, in even 18 months to get the click sound on a clip. Everyone's like, why is that important? I'm like, it's it is very important. The little details of a brand and a product matter. And that with that comes endless hours of worry and doubt and scaredness. And yeah, that's that's the curse that I have, right? As a creative, as a business owner. I just want it to be perfect for people.

Joss: 1:08:31

And I think that's it, though. He is without a doubt a visionary and he's so creative. And there is, you know, I would love so much to be to have more of that in myself. It was it's a joy to watch and to be a part of. But that is the flip side. I have to come down sometimes distance myself and go, it's amazing that you want to get that click right. It's incredibly frustrating because I just want to get it out there and get it going. But it's amazing that he has stuck with that because that is what it is today, and that's what people have bought into. And it is the best product it could ever be. So it's it's the light and the shape.

Ben: 1:09:08

So exercise is one clear one we came up with there. And also just finding someone outside that you can download with and unpack with.

Nik: 1:09:22

How's your work out of 10? How's your family and relationship? And how are you out of 10? And so we just sit there and we just talk. Four very different people I've met up here. What vastly different people, but we just sit and talk and we don't come home and tell our partners what we discussed. And we you realize feeling A, you can be of service to someone because you've listened to them. And also, you're just you're normal. And actually, what you're working on isn't doom and gloom, it's part of the journey because someone's got a wider view of what you're trying to do. So that's important. I find that really important.

Ben: 1:09:54

So it brings you back to the bigger picture when you can get caught down the rabbit hole. What about you, Jos?

Joss: 1:09:59

It's a good question. I think I'm really bad at carving out time. I have had to stop drinking completely. I had to give up about two years ago because I hit that wonderful thing, perimenopause, and it just didn't work for me. I was getting heart palpitations and and it was just not good. And that's what I had to do, and that's really, really helped me. And I think, you know, we moved as well. We moved away from this, you know, the city centre. We're now in a space where, you know, we're surrounded by nature, and it's a really peaceful place to live, and I love that. And, you know, walking the dog down to the beach every day and just checking in or checking out, I suppose, every day makes a really big difference. I think the flip side of that is that I don't have those close girlfriends that I used to have around me, and I really miss that. But at the same time, as cliche as this sounds, it's gonna sound really awful. Nick and I are actually really good mates. Like we're probably best friends, and I think that we get a lot from each other as well as you know, the perils of working together. There is something really lovely about sharing everything.

Ben: 1:11:08

So basically for you, it's finding peace and peace and a place to it's absolute peace.

Joss: 1:11:13

Peace away from the kids, from work, from everything, just you know, switching, actually, just switching the noise down.

Nik: 1:11:20

You've started swimming, you've started swimming in the morning. Now you come down and have a swim at the ocean pool.

Joss: 1:11:24

I do on the weekends. Yeah. Too busy getting the kids out to school in the week because you're off having coffee with your mate.

Ben: 1:11:30

Oh everyone gets their moment, huh?

Joss: 1:11:34

Yeah, that's that's not mine.

Ben: 1:11:35

So tell me, you know, the world does need more people like you two, taking on looking at problems and going, well, I'm gonna be the change I want to see. And then going through the pain. You've done the pain to get where you are, but the rewards are enormous. You just imagine the satisfaction of knowing you've created this fundamentally. Maybe you need to take a little holiday to feel it from time to time, but imagine that's enormous, you know. What advice would you give to other people thinking of setting out on something like this?

Nik: 1:12:06

I would say to anybody, you've got to solve a problem, or you look at something and you can make it better. That's cool too. You'd have to reinvent something, but it's got to be of service or of purpose or make somebody's life better as a product or a service. So that's the first thing. The second thing is you are gonna be leading this. So don't go in thinking you're gonna make shitloads of money. I can't tell you how many mates ring me going, I want to set up a business, but oh, I couldn't not get paid for three months. Get comfortable with not getting paid for three years. Seriously, because the bigger the idea, the bigger the risk, the bigger the thought, right? So you've got to be like that. And also, as you're backing, you're the person leading this, you're the one, you know, dealing with everything. All roads lead to you. So you've got to trust your gut. If you don't think something is right, it doesn't matter whether an expert of 30 years, 50 years is telling you something, how are you feeling about this? Because when that expert left the project or you've paid their hours and they've gone, you're the one that's got to take this forward. So don't believe just because you've got no experience or you're sat opposite someone who's an expert, that you're also not an expert learning, right? And so I would say trust your gut is the most important thing. And I didn't do that enough. I listened to too many other people on the journey. Great.

Joss: 1:13:21

Just I'd also say that, you know, just because untrashing the planet is our purpose and in our DNA, that doesn't necessarily make the business perfect. Like I would say, if you wanted to start a business, it doesn't have to be a sustainable business at all, but you can use the decisions that you can make, the suppliers that you use, the people you employ, you can make better decisions as part of that. Use that as your superpower, that you can make good choices. And it doesn't always have to be a financial sacrifice. Like, I don't believe for a second that we pay more because we use Avenue to do our dispatch. I think we're just using our money in a better way. I'd also not be frightened. I think one of the things that that we've done really well is asking people for their opinion and their help. And I think that generally when people start a business, they're so proud that they or or they let their pride get in the way of succeeding. So it's almost like they feel like if I show any kind of weakness, people will think I'm a failure. That's not true. I think, you know, be open about what you're struggling with, don't hide it, find people that can help you. There are so many people out there that are willing to give some time to people that are doing a good thing. So I would say definitely ask the questions, don't be afraid.

Nik: 1:14:45

And I'll say if you have an idea, don't share it with friends or family because they don't want to say to you it's shit. That's awesome. And then you go on your merry journey. Ask a stranger. And back to when Josh said, I've got no qualms. I would sit in shopping centres and talk to people about this brand, and they'd just go, they look terrible, mate. Whereas a friend wouldn't say that. They don't want to hurt your feelings. So never ask a friend or a family, unless you know you want to design an electric car and your uncle makes electric cars, then talk to Uncle Electric Carmaker. But otherwise, just ask strangers. Talk to strangers because strangers will just tell you as it is. Awesome advice.

Ben: 1:15:25

So, everyone out there, don't delay, get yourself some ever so cool Sunnies and eyewear today, and other eyewear today. Today at goodcitizen.com.au. Correct.

Nik: 1:15:36

Yeah, and we we've launched prescription as well online, so you can get yourself prescription multifocal, single vision readers. Oh, yeah, we do it all now.

Ben: 1:15:43

I mean you've gone way bigger than Sunnies. I did note that myself. In fact, you're wearing a very nice pair today, Jos.

Joss: 1:15:48

I am. I'm blind as a bat.

Ben: 1:15:51

And uh luckily there are glasses everywhere in this house. If the good people at home want to follow you on social media, where should they do so?

Nik: 1:15:59

Good citizens underscore official on Facebook and what's that other one? Instagram. Kids tease me. I'm absolutely I'm solving real world problems, not the problem of trying to get more followers, but the kids beat me up for that. Yeah, good citizens underscore official, and you can follow us. And it would be awesome to have you on board as part of our community. Great.

Ben: 1:16:18

Thank you very much for the yeah.

Nik: 1:16:20

Thanks for that. Thank you. Did you press record?